Not sure if xc/down country or whatever it’s called is a forbidden subject on here but thought I’d ask the question as it is gravity related. I’ve ridden bikes for 30 years give or take, for a good 20 years it was solely downhill racing and riding, then I discovered trail bikes and pedalling uphill so for the last decade I have pretty much been doing the enduro thing, currently running a nomad v6 as the only bike I have and love the thing for the gnarlier stuff but lately I have been noticing lots more trails which I don’t ride anymore as they aren’t fun on the nomad and just thinking maybe something like the new epic evo 8 from spesh would make them fun. I have loads of trail riding locally mostly it is quite rooty and a bit rocky but some of it not so steep. Just really wanting to ask other gravity orientated riders if they ride bikes like the epic and there still capable? I don’t want to go out and take it really easy but accept that it’s not going to go as well as my nomad, I have always loved a good all day mission in the saddle and the older I have got the harder that has started to feel on a big enduro bike. Maybe a bike like the epic evo 8 would scratch this itch and still leave me smiling on the way down? Any input much appreciated
I dont know either, but XC bikes look awesome nowadays. Heck! Even riding road bikes offroad is pretty cool too. I hope the thread will take traction
Sure would. If you’re not sure, buy a Chisel instead of the Epic.
lots of my rides involve a trail or section where the big bike is more appropriate, but for 90% of the ride my XC bike is faster, more nimble, more fun, and more appropriate. These new bikes are so good and shockingly capable. I like climbing and earning my descents, and I don’t mind sacrificing a small amount of downhill performance to make the climbs more lively.
Seems ridiculous to me when I see giant enduro bikes toodling on the XC trails. Looks miserable. Maybe they only have one bike, I don’t know. But half these doofuses have dh tires and inserts on trails that a rigid single speed could handle.
A lightweight wheelset with lighter/faster/drifty tires can get you there 60% of the time - it works for me every time.
I'm just about to put up my review of the Epic8 (this week) but have also extensively ridden the Transition Spur, Trek Top Fuel and Transition Smuggler (built light).
Overall I'd highly encourage you to look at all of these bikes. Other bikes I'd put on the list include the Santa Cruz Tallboy, Yeti SB120, and the Ibis Ripley.
IMO, there is a big difference in bike performance and feel between those chassis that are flex stay driven and those chassis that fully rely on pivots. If you are skewing toward doing a little racing and have a longer travel bike, flex stay is great - maybe go this direction and build it as light as you can afford. Conversely, if you are skewing toward not racing and want this bike to be as capable as a short travel bike can be, don't skip that "extra" pivot and maybe bump up to the Tallboy/Smuggler/SB120/Ripley side of things.
Cheers!
Oh - my review of the Spur FWIW
Exactly on all of this but I'd add if you ride lots of chunk and roots (even on flatter XC style trails) skip the flex stay pivots.
Build up a lightweight Stumpy15 with full XC tires and wheels. Shred that. Unless you are trying to win a regional xc race or break your DH trail PR a bike like the Stumpy with ridiculously light wheels and tires is going to be quickest.
Great advice. I did this with a Stumpy 14 frame I got for a steal. Built it up on the lighter side to be the "XC" bike to compliment my EVO, so it's got a Fox 34, XTR brakes, XO drivetrain, and some lightweight (~1400g) XC wheels. With the XC wheels and XC rubber the bike absolutely flies.
If you're wanting to buy a new XC or downcountry bike, definitely do it. You'll have a blast. But first, do me a favor and borrow someone's XC or downcountry wheels with tires mounted and swap your rotors over so you can try your Nomad with faster rolling tires and your rear shock locked out. It'll blow your mind how much more fun those now-boring trails are. I just have the one long travel bike (SC Megatower, like you) and with two wheelsets I'm able to have fun anywhere. Obviously I'd rather have a dedicated short travel bike but I'm short on $$$ and space in my one-bedroom apartment. When I had an air shock I would add 10 psi to the shock, but now I'm on a coil and I just flip the lockout. Not great, but not terrible either.
@Craig_Nelson I'll agree with some others that the chunkier your terrain, the more something with an extra pivot or two might be better than a flex stay. I have a Spur set up 140/120 with Ass/DHR2, and it's amazing until I start getting into rougher terrain, at which point I can feel every hit in my old ankles. The geo works great for steeper descents. I've been on the fence for ages about going to a Smuggler. My park/shuttle bike is a Dreadnought, which is complete overkill for the XC-ish stuff that I use the Spur for. I have one local trail that almost needs two bikes - the Spur for the climb and the Dread for the descent. I always ride it on the Spur and deal with the joint pain later.
I agree with everything in Jeff Brines' Spur review video.
Well for me it's all about the geometry and the tires and it might be really terrain-dependent. On a short travel, you can't just rely on suspension to get you out of trouble or ride really aggressively. I feel like 120mm will just give you a bit of comfort on medium impact but don't expect anything for big impacts or traction. To go faster you need bigger meaty tires traction. it already puts it out of contention for XC racing.. you just can't compete with slow-rolling rubber. Many modern downcountry have a better geo that will make you smile on flowy trails.
I still think you won't end up at the same place with a bike bike built light and a small bike build light. I think a big bike will always be more versatile. I can imagine riding anything on my enduro not on my downcounty... However, a down-country can be a blast on the right trails
What I mean is when it become really serious nothing really replace long travel and there is;t really a big weight difference between a fox32 100m and a fox 34 140 or 150mm but the later will bring you to the top of the mountain and down any bike park.. I would not touch any jump trails or tech on a 100mm
I have always been a one bike type of guy myself, I don’t like owning too much stuff, it pains me to even want a second bike!
Being overbiked is a thing. I run a trail hardtail for the local valley trails here. Riding the hardtail has upped my skills for the full suspension bike that I now under-bike the squishy bike as I no longer need so much bike to do the things I want to do. A hardtail is also a different type of mountain biking keeping the sport varied and fun for me. A hardtail can also nudge towards gravel, making many ride-out-of-the-house "dull" trails fun or a bar bike. Another option depending on what you want to do and your terrain.
In my experience Geo is the number 1 thing that limits a bikes capabilities (or at least my confidence in its abilities). I have a trail hardtail that I will ride some pretty chunky trails on, I just have to do it a little slower. Which is where I think travel comes in. Geo limits the capabilities, Travel limits the the speed.
There is obviously a limiting point on both but that's been my general feeling riding different types of bikes.
Regarding flex stays... it's the travel, geo, and designed kinematics not the extra pivot that matters.
I have build a 160mm travel frame that relies on the seatstays to flex for two pivot locations the suspension feel is in line with other frames I have built that use multiple bearings for pivots.
I'm a big fan of modern 120-140mm XC/down country/trail bikes because they make mellower trails more exciting. They obviously easier to pedal and more fun for big rides, but I love how they don't mute descents as much as enduro bikes. They also (generally) carry way better speed. Going the light wheelset/light tire setup on your Nomad would make it more spritely and better to pedal, but personally, I've always found that on the descents that won't change the fact that you're riding a squishy 160mm travel bike. And then when you do hit gnarly descents, your bike will promote sending it, but your wheels/tires can be limiting. I'm more keen to go the inverse direction—short travel, aggressive XC bike with trail wheels and EXO+ or DD-esque tires since I know I'll be able to push the bike hard descending, and the beefier wheel/tire setup won't tax the bike much climbing.
The list of bikes that pedal well and are capable descenders is massive these days. The new Epic EVO 8 is rad and fits what you're describing. I also think the previous Stumpjumper is still an awesome bike and you might be able to find it for a good deal.
Not only am I absolutely looking into DC bikes now, but with the way the market is going I might have to get a DC bike going forward to keep the wheel base short and keep the bike playful fun and poppy.
That said, I absolutely LOVED seeing that Norco Optic come out in MX because that sets a precedent that I really need the industry to set as a possibility. Even if I will likely never afford that specific model of carbon only Optic. SHORT TRAVEL MULLET IS VALID. I also demo'd a mulleted version of the new Stumpy this weekend (as well as the Status 140) and they were a blast. But the balanced geo and stack number of the Stumpy just took it to another level.
Similarly, demo'd a Capra and Izzo and liked the Izzo WAY better because it wasn't a hog of a mini DH bike and doesn't need breakneck speeds to come alive. Felt like I had to endanger myself to really get some push and pull out of the Capra using momentum.
Give me a Tallboy or Izzo or Spur or Element or ANYTHING aside from yet another dual 29er 64.5 'trail' bike that's also overbuilt/specced and weighs as much as an enduro or light DH bike.
I've already had to emotionally let go of 26 and dual 27 builds so... Need some consolation here with short travel MX bikes. And if not that at least a shorter wheelbase DC 29er.
The next bike I'm looking at is exactly in that same category: mixed wheel short travel trail bike.
Mixed wheel because I'm short. Short travel because I live in the US plains. Bike because bike.
Santa Cruz 5010
Raaw Jibb V2 (with the optional mixed wheel-friendly shock mount)
Ibis Ripley V5
Those are my realistic options.
In a perfect world I'd get something that would allow me to swap to a 29" rear as well so I can play with that...but beggars can't be choosers.
Yeah seeing Kona give up on 27 with the redesigns and even Marin is doing frame size specific wheel sizes now instead of full range... I've just accepted dual 27 is basically done. It's basically just gonna be MX for smaller sizes, maybe a dual 27 for smalls here and there. So i'm gonna have to take whatever MX style bike that isnt enduro/AM and just live with it. I mean which I will happily do that Stump was a BLAST and I wish they basically sold it in MX config isntead of... I guess you have to simply buy your own wheel and the link of course. But there are some other issues with that frame, particularly frame only, with the cabling or lack thereof. Waiting to see what the alloy builds look like. That would be more compelling. And even the Status 140 was fun if only I had a riser bar when I demo'd it. Stack is a little awkward seems like it's maybe the same front tri or something and built for the 170...
And of course that amazing Norco Optic is not only carbon only but high pivot as well so for the simple budget buyers that's a lot to think about. It's compromises all the way down! I would like to demo that LE jeffsy MX version but I don't think they actually demo it... Only the normal 29er versions. I could see the 5010 being THE bike for our category especially with how they're kinda 'ruining' the Bronson which... I didn't understand the MXing of the 5010 until I saw how they ruined the Bronson also lol
Is a Scott Ransom in 120 mm travel mode a downcountry bike? 🤔
Agree with this. My wheels/tires limit riding more than travel.
Running WAO Triads and EXO+ with a rear insert (tubolight) works well on my Spur to keep it spritely but still be able to hit rough lines and not worry too much about blowing up sidewalls
Another option I only just remembered is Pivot.
Their Trail 429 is "happy" to be run as a mixed wheel bike. Their flip chip apparently does some adjusting that makes a mullet work well.
They also have a headset cup which raises the front end to allow a full 27.5" bike to have the same geometry and bottom bracket height as a full 29" bike (when used in combination with the flip chip).
Plus they have the Shadowcat which is a full 27.5" bike stock. That might be worth a look!
picked up a Blur with a 120mm Pike this spring to compliment my 160mm Bronson, and have ended up riding it probably 70% of my rides this year. you certainly lose out on top end speed in the chunk, but tbh, it's so much faster everywhere else and so much fun riding a bit more on the edge. I used to be a fairly die hard hardtail rider so will admit its in my wheelhouse, lol. Great for keep the skills honed for when you jump on the longer travel rig!
I would be on a ShadowCat right now, as would my GF... If they weren't like 6k to start. And secondhand ones go for like 3k minimum. Pivot has a lot of great aspects to their bikes, aside from the kinda weird sizing/size down thing. I'd probably ride a medium for their models, not sure.
I purchased a 23’ Top Fuel last year and I honestly ride it 90% of the time now. My trail network doesn’t have much elevation and the bike makes pedalling and more mellow trails so much more enjoyable.
Obviously it gets a bit sketchy on really rough sections of track, but you just have to pick a smoother line or slow down a little.
Such a great compliment to my Enduro bike and would highly recommend a short travel ripper if you can have 2 bikes
The outgoing stumpy has been a bike I have came back to again and again thinking that might just be the ideal bike for a guy like me
The stumpy is such a great platform. I sold by Epic Evo and bought the flexstay Stumpjumper which I believe might be one of the best bang for buck lightweight XCM setups. People complain about pedal bob which is mainly due to the extra light damped digressive tuned (Trail RX) DPS it comes with. I installed a factory tune 2025 Float and it works great.
2.2lb frameset is hard to beat and funny enough it weighs identical to the new Epic Evo 8. I prefer the outgoing Stumpy because it accelerates just like the Epic but has geometry better suited for the mountains. 65.5 head angle and 76.5 set angle in the high setting. 432 chainstays (< S5) to make it super lively. Fully build is just under 27lb.
I am a flex stay enjoyer, at least steel ones like on my reeb sst
Well I primarily ride park, however last 2 seasons choose status 140 as a main rig, based on geo and fun factor, compared to 180 bike i used to have.
Regardless of the travel i’d look at the bike certification to hit jumps/drops/rugged terrain first, then amount of travel.
since separation of the heat tube is not a fun factor on any bike
Chislet and epic are fun, however i do not like cheese wheels (it eventually happen sooner to them then any trail/enduro wheel) and long stem
It's absolutely all about how the short travel bike makes a lot of trails more FUN - the shorter travel and steeper HA combine to keep the wheelbase in check, IMO this is one of the key aspects that help these bikes carry so much more speed on anything but the steepest/gnarliest trails. Longer missions become so much more enjoyable as well, it might not feel like much when you pick the two bikes up side by side, but over the course of a long day of pedaling the reduced weight and general ease of moving around of the lighter bike will add up to a lot of energy saved. Since you already have a big bike for the burly stuff, definitely go for something at the sharp end of the spectrum. Don't fall into the trap of either overbuilding whatever "downcountry" bike you end up choosing, or trying to make your Nomad lighter with wheels and tires or whatever.
Case in point, here's a YT IZZO I built up which was subsequently high-jacked by my 20-yr old son who refuses to give it back. He has a big enduro bike as well, and he shreds pretty hard, yet he'll pick the IZZO for 90% of our rides. He says he can't get enough of how much more playful and fun it is, and even though he'll sometimes admit to getting in over his head on rougher trails, he prefers that. It's got a 130 mm fork on there, I asked if he wanted to bump it up to 140 to which he replied, and I quote, "don't you dare touch it".
I really lIke my Trek Top Fuel and is my go to for anything that's not a bike park and have rode it in bike parks but was slowed mostly out of concern for light weight xc wheels
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